Russell Moore and
Andy Stanley conversation at
[Quick
facts: Russell Moore is the current SBC (Southern Baptist
Convention) Ethics board (ERLC, 8th) president, and a former SBC president.
Andy Stanley is "senior pastor" at "North Point Community
Church". This video clip you are about to watch is the two men talking on
stage during the ERLC conference, August 25-26, 2016. It's a clip that is
concerning and I think you'll see why as you listen and/or read the transcript
below.]
Video link: https://youtu.be/4Gmw6nHfuts
One
note on the format of this transcript/report. First, I'm posting the
transcript. Second I intend to give a little commentary where I endeavor to
compare Mr. Moore's words and Mr. Stanley's words to *the* Word of God (the
Bible). Third, I want to share a link of another helpful analysis, though I
don't know this man's record, only that this article quotes some good Bible
verses and makes some good points. So, with that short outline, let's jump in.
--
Part 1 --
Transcript:
[The video starts at the end of a speech or
conversation, not sure which...]
Moore:
But, we're actually out of time. But, I want to do this. Uh...
Stanley:
Well let's wrap it up then. That was great. Thank you very much for having me
at this conference. [audience is laughing and so is Mr. Moore.]
Moore: We
were talking a little bit earlier, uh... a couple - couple of years ago, I
guess. Some reporter referred to me as an "evangelical pope",
Stanley:
Pope.
Moore: Which
made my Catholic grandma happy. [Audience laughs again.] But, I kind of said,
you really don't understand how "evangelicalism" works. [Andy
chuckles.] And part of me was kind of pridefully saying 'I don't want any
responsibility for that'. You know. [Andy nodded.] If I were "pope",
I'd kind of hope things would be different. - If you were the real...
Stanley:
Right.
Moore:
"evangelical pope", and you really had the authority to say this is
how it's gonna be.
Stanley:
That would be so fun. Yeah.
Moore:
Within evangelicalism. Yeah... What would you do?
Stanley:
Um, I would have all the churches that are dying, dying, dying, dying, dying,
sell their buildings and give their money to church planters. I just made that
up sitting here. That was pretty good though wasn't it? [audience laughs] I
don't know. That wasn't on my list. I just know a lot of church planters here.
I mean the mishap and
mis-appropriation, and the misused and unused real-estate in this country just
drives us all crazy. Because some of you are... you're in a grocery store, or you're
in the back of a school, and then down the street is, you know, $4.5 million dollars
worth of property and 8 people sitting in there. But, that's not on my list.
Okay. Here's my short
list. Going back to what we talked about earlier. I would ask preachers and
pastors and student pastors in their communication to get the spotlight off the
Bible and back on the resurrection. Um, let's get peoples back - attention back
on Jesus, back as soon as possible. That the issue for us is always who is
Jesus? Did He rise from the dead? And that we would leverage the authority we
have in the resurrection as opposed to Scripture.
Not, because I don't
believe Scripture is inspired. But, in terms of reaching this culture. But,
we've already talked about that one.
I might republish all
the Bibles. And call the first half: "God's Covenant Ancient Israel"
and the second half: "God's Covenant with the World". Um... One of
the... Because, the way we talk about the Scripture is confusing for un-churched
people and presenting the Bible. It kind of goes back to our first
discussion.... And I know you're thinking - I'm so glad he's not the
"pope". [audience and Russell laugh.]
Um... I would ban
Christians from judging outsiders and require them to ask "What does love
require of me?" Because Paul said, who or what business do I have to judge
outsiders? I should judge those inside the church. So, we don't do a good job
of policing ourselves. But, we love policing all the sinners out there.
Moore:
Agreed.
Stanley:
We agree?
Moore: We
agree on that.
Stanley:
Then I'd just like to stop right there. [Everyone laughs, including Russell.]
We finally agree...
End: [video cuts out there.]
--
Part 2 --
Short notes, analysis, and Scriptures:
Okay...
Did you notice how many Scriptures these two men contradicted in just two and
half minutes? Let's look at several of these errors.
>
"The evangelical pope"... the what? Does it not matter to either of
these two "leaders" that Jesus forbid hypocritical hierarchy? In
Revelation 2, Jesus discussed quite clearly what the Nicolaitans were doing...
something that Jesus says He hates. Hate is a strong word, and Jesus used it
specifically. The Greek word is "miseo" and it is an active word meaning, more
literally: "I AM hating" or another fitting wording would be: "I Am
detesting". Study it out, that's how serious Jesus was about this
form of lording-it-over-the-flock, and Jesus taught about it in Revelation 2:6,15
as well as 1st Peter 5:3, and 3rd John 1:12. So, my next question is: Does it
not matter to these two that for those who are *actually* saved, Jesus said this
in Matthew 23: "... 6 They love the best places at
feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men,
'Rabbi, Rabbi.' 8 But you, do not
be called 'Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all
brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on
earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in Heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the
Christ. 11 But he who is greatest
among you shall be your servant." (Matthew 23:6-11)
>
So, Mr. Stanley's first idea is to talk tough with the churches that are
"dying, dying, dying, dying, dying" and force/compel them to sell
their buildings and/or property, and then give those buildings/properties
and/or money to "church planters"... This may sound good on the
surface... but it's not, when you look at it longer than a glance. Have you
thought about what type of churches would be in the category of "church
planters"? It's the larger churches with "extra" money to use to
control and/or help, right? So, to put it more simply, what Mr. Stanley just
said is that he wants the smaller churches (even maybe some
home-churches/independent churches) to sell their buildings and/or properties,
and/or give that money to the bigger churches to use as they wish... it's for
the "greater good", right? Wrong.
>
Mr. Stanley would get the people's focus off of the Bible and back on the
"resurrection" because he can supposedly "prove" the
resurrection to unbelievers, and then use that "leverage" to convince
them incrementally to believe the Bible again? Um, no. That's not how it works,
and Mr. Stanley knows this. When you put rebellious humans as the "judge"
and God on "trial", that's both idolatry and blasphemy. God's Word is
what proves the resurrection true, not visa-versa. If God had not given us His
Word, then we wouldn't have been able to prove anything, at all. God is the
Only One who can prove anything true or not, because He *is* the Truth (John 1,
14:6, Colossians 1:16-18). As God said in Isaiah 55: "11 So shall My word be
that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall
accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I
sent it." (Isaiah 55:11)
>
Mr. Stanley would republish the Bible and make some "small"
alterations so that any unbeliever could understand it? Has he not read 1st
Corinthians 2? "14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of
God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they
are spiritually discerned." (1st Corinthians 2:14) ~ If they are
spiritually dead and actively hardening their hearts in sin, it doesn't matter
if they profess to be "saved". Matthew 7:13-14, 7:21-23, Matthew 13, and
John 14:15,21,23-24 explain this clearly - if there is no good fruit, there is
no Holy Spirit, and they are not saved, so no they cannot understand the
Scriptures apart from Christ and the Holy Spirit. If Mr. Stanley ever does
reduce the Scriptures like he discussed he's dreamed of, then he would prove
even more to be a dangerous wolf, with a false gospel, as Galatians 1:8-9
teaches quite clearly.
>
And lastly, apparently Mr. Stanley is on-board with the world's preaching of
stop reminding us what God calls sin... and apparently that goes for s*xual
sins, including same-gender perversion. I don't know how bold he is about this
false teaching here, but the implications are there that he's trying to lessen
Christian's (and the Bible's) definitions and teachings on sin. I think these
next two passages seems to be describing Mr. Stanley quite well, and it implicates
Mr. Moore for not having said *anything* about the unBiblical statements Mr.
Stanley said.
"1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times
will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of
money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful,
unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without
self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors,
headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having
a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For
of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible
women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always
learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now
as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of
corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they
will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs
also was." (2nd Timothy 3:1-9)
"1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord
Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His
kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke,
exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time
will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own
desires, because they have
itching ears, they will heap up for themselves
teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But
you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an
evangelist, fulfill your ministry." (2 Timothy
4:1-5)
Preaching
the Word of God (the Bible) "in season" and "out of season" means that
sometimes and some or many people will not want to hear preaching against their
favorite sins, but God's holy character doesn't change just because a person
decides to abandon their potential covenant with God to run back to the
pleasures of sin that Christ died to save them from. "19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had
been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of
them were of us."
(1st John 2:19) And as God clearly says numerous times and in numerous ways: "13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober,
and rest your hope fully upon
the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as
obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but
as He who called you is holy,
you also be holy in all your
conduct, 16 because it is written, 'Be holy, for I am holy.' 17 And if you call on
the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work, conduct
yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear..."
(1 Peter 1:13-17)
On the subject of lists of sins that
God does not, cannot, will not back down on, anyone (including Mr. Stanley and
Mr. Moore) needs to look at Exodus 20:1-17, Romans 1:18-32, Galatians 5:16-21,
2nd Timothy 3:1-5, and Revelation 21:8 to find s good start on that list. And
if some of it is still "vague" to either of them, then they need to
read Jesus' teachings in Matthew 5 through 7. So, if Mr. Stanley is that
lacking on how very extremely clear the Word of God is on this issue, he should
start there, but I really don't think "ignorance" is Mr. Stanley's
problem, or Mr. Moore's problem for that matter. Willful rebellion and the
desire to reduce God's holiness and Word and accountability on their favorite
sins, I think, is their motivation - as both show much bad fruit.
So, that's the short notes for my
part. Below is a link of someone else who had good commentary on this video and
conversation.
--
Part 3 --
Another analysis, from Scripture:
This
man's explanation had a number of helpful Scriptures and some helpful notes,
though I don't know that I can/should endorse his other writings, since I don't
know what else he writes. But, here's his helpful analysis:
https://pulpitandpen.org/2016/08/26/sbc-conference-get-the-spotlight-off-the-bible-courtesy-of-russell-moore-andy-stanley/
***
** ***
This
concludes this short study into false teaching fresh out of the 2016 Southern
Baptist Convention's ERLC (Ethics and Religious Liberties Commission)
conference. Please keep it in prayer, and consider sharing information that
helps Christians to discuss the gaps, errors, and false teachings of the top
prominent teachers in the US, today.
Thank
you.
Watching,
Preaching, Praying,
your
growing bro, SH
